All right. >> Hello. Hello, everyone. I'm here with Carlos Sosa. And he is the founder of Groove Line Horns, which is a successful R&B funk horn section based in Austin, Texas. Carlos is a saxophonist and horn arranger for groups like Zac Brown band, Jason Mraz, Maroon 5, Kelly Clarkson, you name it, among countless others. And it's a real treat that I've snagged him for an interview right now, because he is about to go start a writing session with Zac Brown band. And he just happened to be available to talk to us for a second about his process for arranging horns. So Carlos, I'm just going to ask you a couple questions. And I really just want you to talk in terms of your own process. Don't worry about being too technical. I just really want to know how you think about arranging horns personally. So, the first question is, when are horns appropriate in terms of what kind of emotional setting or what types of tunes you could speak to genre or even to lyrical settings? What types of tunes constitute the need for horns? >> If I had it my way, I mean, everything's better with horns, obviously. >> [LAUGH] >> But I don't make I typically, I don't make that decision, that's why people come to me is they're like, hey, I need horns. >> Right. >> So I think, I mean I grew up listening to like James Brown and Earth Wind and Fire, and Michael Jackson stuff, and so those are the kind. And a lot of Latin music so, [COUGH] I don't know I guess, high energy pop. >> Right. >> Course, Latin music, salsa, meringue, stuff like that. >> Do you think it's pretty genre specific? Do you find that horns have a tendency to live in certain genres over other genres? >> Yeah, I think so. There's not a ton of horns in country music. >> Right, so R&B, funk, sometimes hip hop. >> Yeah. >> Latin. Cool. The next question I have is, what are some of your favorite songs you've done arrangements for. Maybe we could pinpoint just one even that we could kind of dive into for a second, and look at how you went about making the arrangements on that specific tune. >> We can look at- >> Any Jason Mraz maybe? >> Mraz, yeah, Butterfly, that was one of the first big records I have done. >> Wonderful. >> I just listened to like, I guess, the first, I don't know, 30 seconds of this song. So I'm trying to like, remember what I did and my process. I remember that one very well because it kind of struck me. I mean, I guess with every song, you kind of like, there's elements in pretty much every song that makes you remember, or like core changes. Or a groove, or something that you remember from another song that you was an influence when you were a kid or something. >> Right. So you're in a sense, you're borrowing usually. >> Constantly. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, so usually like, when I have my other horn players in the room, I'll say that, I'll be like, this reminds me of this song. Or like, you remember this melody here or what they did here, that's exactly what we need to do. And then they'll be, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I'll use an example like that. >> Right. >> And this one, when I heard this song, when Jason sent me the track, what did l think of? l think l thought of it might've been like l will survive or something. Yeah, l think that was it. because it was kind of like the changes are kind of the same. >> Right, yeah, yeah. >> Kind of a little bit of a disco feel, right? >> Mm-hm. >> Anyway, so it was interesting because the song starts out with horn hits, which I think I didn't originally do. >> Yeah. >> And it was the pre-chorus of the song where I did do this horn hits. Then they copied those, and put them in the front of the song, and that's how they started. So, which is cool. >> Okay, so they decided to what we're calling a fanfare or an instrumental hook. They decided to put that up top, they're kind of stab oriented but in terms of the class definitions, they're like stabby in a way. [LAUGH] >> These stabs that I'm referring to like the free course is just kind of like just hits on the downbeat that are the chord of the songs is like, [SOUND]. >> Yeah. >> [SOUND] So the melody that is that kind of let's see, there's this huge counter melody like during the chorus, that's like a hook thing, too. >> Okay, cool. >> What I was going to mention is that the first time that the horns come in, he's kind of, his intro song is very kind of chill and like relaxed. And he's thinking very suave. >> Yeah. >> And I always had this really cool, what is it, George Benson, Turn Your Love Around. So there's a flute and a playing together. >> Great tune. >> [SOUND] Right, so I always love that song. And I love the texture of those two instruments together. So I remember saying, all right, this is remember George Benson, Turn Your Love Around. So we're going to do that, we're going to write this note. Yeah, so that's basically what I did, [INAUDIBLE]. >> So it's a borrowing technique of kind of drawing from your influences and applying them in the context that you're currently working in. And making changes necessary in terms of chord structure or rhythm. But like, that's kind of the basis how you generally work is- >> Absolutely. >> So I'm glad you mentioned that, that's great because that makes all of us feel more comfortable in knowing that we can really pull from our influences in a big way. And- >> I mean, this is like anything, right? It's like anything about music-wise. If you're an instrumentalist or you are an arranger, or you're a song writer, one of the biggest things is to just listen to everything. >> Right. >> Right? >> Right, yeah. >> Like if you're a jazz musician. Listen to pop music, listen to Jimi Hendrix, listen to Coltrane. Listen to Miles Davis and then you just put all that stuff together and you can pull from it in your brain at some point, >> You're right. You're right, definitely. So, next question I have is, are there specific moments in your tunes where you tend, the tunes that you've arranged. Were you tend to look for a clue or something that helps clue you in to make the best horn arrangements. Like is there a moment in the tune that you're looking for. Specific things that you sort of find and pinpoint, and say, okay, I'm going to put a horn part there. >> Right, I definitely have a, if I have a song, somebody send me a song. I have my, like the unconscious method that I just like, all right, first time listening to a song, I press play and I listen to like immediately what the song tempo is. >> Right. >> Kind of the feel, the first maybe 30 seconds, and so I tend to like more uptempo kind of funk stuff like that's what I like. But I'm very groove oriented. So if I hear a groove then, it excites me. >> Yeah. And then then I go straight to the chorus, first thing I'd listen to the chorus. And then so, so there's an example of a song. They're all, it can be anything like, where the chorus of that song Bounce that recently came out by this artist Out of Sight. It just says bounce in the chorus. So it's like all this build up and it says bounce, and then you have, 4, 8, 16 I don't know this huge chorus of nothing going on. So, you know, my job they're like, hey, can you fill that up? So yeah, I have to come up with a monster hook like something that's going to really pull the audience in because that's the song, right? >> Yeah, yeah. >> And it doesn't happen too often where I get the spotlight where it's hey, we have this amazing song, but we need you to write the hook, [LAUGH] that doesn't happen often. >> [LAUGH] Right, right. >> But it did in that case, and that's totally separate other than I would say 75% of the time my job is to make the chorus I guess hit harder, or like more melodic, or just kind of give the chorus a lift and make it punchier. And so if there's a chorus I'll either, most of the time I'll hit down beats to like say all right, here's the chorus. >> Right. >> And then the down beat. >> Right. >> Or just kind of accentuate the melody that's already there. So l look for holes basically. >> Yeah yeah. >> Right. >> Look for holes. >> l look for holes. And if l can plan those holes without taking away from the melody that's happening already and just, that's one of the important parts too is not getting in the way. So it's this fine line of like, doing a good job and like hitting this this balance between a counter melody or like punches, or stabs like you were saying. But not getting in the way. >> But not getting in the way, exactly. >> Right. >> Yeah, so we've been talking a lot about different types of space and there's rhythmic space and then there's frequency range space. So you're looking for the spaces, either in terms of actual highs and lows that are not being or lows that are not being filled up. >> Right. >> And this is maybe an unconscious thing, but you might be also looking for where's the vocal not singing. And that could be like little pieces of rhythm in between their lyrics. Little moment of silence in between words, or that could be at the end of a melodic phrase, like they sing something and then there's a little hole there after they're done singing before they sing the next line. So there's, I know that's a great way of just kind of surveying the tune for anybody is just sort of look for the holes. I like that a lot, that's cool. >> Yeah, and sometimes people will send me songs and there's no room. >> Right. >> There's nothing. >> Right. >> But they really want horns. So, it's interesting because I haven't really, you're the first person to actually ask me like- >> [LAUGH] >> So how do you this, like really- >> [LAUGH] >> So I'm thinking about it and I'm thinking of all the different ways, and it is really from like my examples in my head of my childhood, or my early career of the things that I really love, like Steely Dan, or Earth Wind and Fire, or all these things that were my passion for horns and what they did. >> Right. >> So, a lot of the times when I've talked to my guys say there's no room in the chorus, or even a verse or something where there's just no room but they really want horns. And I can do that, so I'll say like, remember That's the Way of the World by Earth, Wind, and Fire when you have the horns in the background playing this rhythmic thing, [SOUND]. >> Right. >> And they're playing the guitar part, so they just took over the guitar part play those chords, and just kind of do that in the background, so that happens too. >> We call that sweeteners, where it's already a part that exists and they're just sweetening it. >> And there's just a lot of like texture things, we can do texture things, we can do melodic things, we can take over the song. And the other thing too is that that's a big thing to remember is that it's not my record, or it's not my song. >> Right, yeah. >> So that's a big mistake kind of earlier arrangers do too is they're like, my God, I have this great song to arrange all this stuff to. >> Yeah. >> And then it's just all over the place, and it's like all this stuff, and the artist will get it back and be like, this is not what I wanted. >> Right. [LAUGH] >> Yeah. >> Too many parts. >> Yeah, exactly. >> I guess I'm just looking for advice for budding songwriters who are now taking their songs and trying to arrange them and put instrumentation and all this stuff around their voice and maybe their guitar or their keys. What info would you like songwriters to know in terms of specific parts that make you happy to play or maybe some common pitfalls that come up, things that happen that keep the song from flowing in the best possible way it can, that you wish that you could give advice in that moment and say, this would work better if you only did this. >> Right, I mean, that's happened a couple of times. >> Yeah. >> I think for the most part people let me do my job, right? So that's the thing it's like- >> That's awesome. >> They'll be like, they'll just say, you're better at this than I am so you just handle that, right? >> Right, yeah. >> I have a lot of the hip-hop producers that I work for, typically I'll do like three different courses maybe. >> Mm-hm. >> And then let them pick. >> Right. >> Because they are more like copy paste, and they'll chop it up and do whatever, and maybe it'll end up not sounding anything like I did >> There's a producer I work with in London, Martin Terefe, I think that how you spell like, you spell it T-E-R-E-F-E, Terefe. And he's like the one guy that I'll send, I'll make this arrangement from to the beginning to the end of the song, so say it's a four minute song. And then I have a different chorus in the, the first chorus is a little different, the second chorus is a little more involved, the third course l have, like say the first chorus I'll do this one melody, the second chorus I'll do a different kind of melody with some rhythmic stuff. And the third chorus to build the song l put everything together, so l have like all this stuff going on and some passes. >> Counter melodies and stuff that put it together. >> Right, right, so I'll build because he likes stuff to build. And then I'll put like my reverbs and my delays and I'll produce the horn stuff the way I would do it because when I deliver my tracks I'll deliver it as like most of the time I mix everything and I'll send them a dry track without any effects and then I'll send them with my effects. And so they can do what they want. >> Right. >> Because Martin's the only guy that I've probably done 100 records with him, but from top to bottom he keeps all my stuff. I don't expect anybody to just put it in the way it is. >> Right, yeah. >> Because like here you have all these choices. >> Right. He's like, no, I trust you like, I'm putting it all in. >> [LAUGH] >> So it's cool. >> Yeah. >> But one of the stories I was going to tell you, I was working with a very, Pretty famous, world famous guitar player, right and he's like a blues guy. And we're in the studio and we just had mutual friends, we didn't really know each other. >> Yeah. >> So anyway, the thing was is like, the record did amazing. >> Yeah. >> But I think it was because of who he was, right, of course. The record got nominated for Grammy's and all that stuff. Didn't actually get the Grammy, but it was amazing. But I remember being in the studio and, I'm in the studio with him, I'm just like, my god, this is amazing, we're with him and everybody's freaking out, and we're having fun and super, super sweet dude. But then we start talking about horn parts and we're just kind of making them up as we go. Yeah. >> And and this has happened a couple of times with huge artists to. That's why I'd like to do my recordings by myself in my studio and then just do them and send them and be like, my god, it's Christmas and they open the song sounds great. >> Right. >> The artist is in the room with you, then this guitar player picked up his guitar, and he's like, why don't we voice it like this, and put this note up top where the trumpet can play this note, and blah, blah, blah, and all this stuff. And then I'm like, it's like, that is not, it just doesn't work. And to them, they're like, I know they're excited and they're like, they get to play with horn or arranging and stuff like that. >> Right, right, they were doing your job for you basically. [LAUGH] >> Right, and it's cool, I appreciate the collaboration, but it doesn't up the end up the best product. >> So if you're working with live horn players, it is always a good idea to ask them what works bests in their range, maybe what parts feel natural for them to play. Just keeping the lines of communication open. >> I still have issues with range because there's so much to remember and ranges of instruments kind of give different effects. >> Right. >> If you want something that Jerry Hey did with Michael Jackson like this huge spread of unison notes like the trumpets up high. Yeah. So you have not unison, but octaves you know you have four octaves of a note for a hit, for a horn hit. >> Right. >> That sounds huge. >> Yeah. >> That gives a certain effect, and then instruments playing in unison. The trumpets typically, the trumpet could be down and then the tenor's up. And their range is to be unison, right? >> Right, yeah. >> And that gives a different effect, so- >> Or they're octaves, or they're octaves apart too often, right? >> Right, yeah. >> Trumpet and tenor. >> So a lot of times, I'd just ask to trumpet player like is that too high for you? >> Yeah. Because me being a saxophone player, for especially tenor sax is kind of the, f for me what in a horn section which makes, gets the punchiness of the brass section, rather than an alto or a barry. >> Yeah. >> But I'll come up with a line and then I'll ask the trumpet player, is that too high for you, can you play it comfortably? >> Mm-hm. >> So it's still a process to feel comfortable in certain keys with certain range because there's so many variables with certain ranges of each instrument. >> If you're are lucky enough to actually be working with players that can play, and they're in the room with you, and you're recording them, you owe it to each other to have a back and forth about what you need as the songwriter and what you hear, but also be open to their suggestions and be open to their ideas. Keeping the lines of communication open, making sure that everybody's getting their needs met [LAUGH] I guess is the bottom line, right? >> It's interesting though because it's all about kind of melody really. >> Yeah. >> And it's, you can get into all sorts of, I like to collaborate with other horn players like with my guys that I've been playing with forever. We'll sit down, and when we listen to a song that we're going to do a chorus and we'll all just start playing. >> Yeah. >> And we're just playing riffs and seeing what sticks and then sometimes you have to get very, sometimes you actually have to zoom into the song to physically see the holes and then put in hit there and put in, just all sorts of stuff. But it's very, the collaboration between like the horn players and like getting the involvement, that's the best, for me, that's the best end result really. >> Right, Carlos thank you so much for doing this with me today, I really appreciate it. It was super helpful for us in terms of working with live players or just getting an idea of how you work and taking ideas that we can apply on our own and I just really appreciate your help. >> Awesome. >> Great. >> Cool.
