Hello, everyone. We're here with a very special guest, Hans Haacke, as part of the Art of the MOOC project. Hello, Hans, thank you for being with us. And we mostly wanted to talk about a project you did a few years ago called To the Population. As part of our online course, we are trying to understand and study different definitions of the public, of not just what publics mean but also what public versus private means and so on. And in this project, you really focused on the distinction between the people and the population. Can you talk a little bit more about what took you to focus on that distinction? And how the project evolved in relation to this idea of people, population, and publics? >> Well, on the face of it is probably not so easy to understand for someone who doesn't know German history. This is a project made for Berlin, for the Reichstag, which is the building in which the German Parliament has been meeting since the late 19th century until something happened in the 30s. It got burned down, and so up for grabs who actually burned it down. It moved somewhere else. And it was only in 1993 or so, in the 90s, that the capital of Germany, the West German capital, moved to Berlin after the reunification. The East Germans had Berlin as the capital originally in the beginning. On the facade, [COUGH] late in the 19th century, the architect of the building, Wallot, proposed to have a dedication to the German people [FOREIGN]. Since at the time there was an emperor, and he was in fact in charge of everything, he did not want to have such a dedication on that building. Maybe because the people, [FOREIGN]. Maybe everyone would remember what happened in France and didn't want to promote that in Germany, because he was our king. He was kicked out and probably not beheaded but lose his power. So he was against this. And then during the First World War, when things were not going too well for Germans, one of his aides told him, Majesty, it probably would be good now to have this dedication. And then it was dark. And he took that advice and agreed. And the letters were designed by of Weimar Germany, architect and designer. And they were cast by a foundry in Berlin, Loevy Foundry, owned by a Jewish family. And then, as we know, there was a republic announced, actually from the balcony of the building. And things got very bad in the 30s. And as we know, during what is now called the Third Reich, when Hitler took over, people like the foundry owners and others who were Jewish, all went to concentration camps and died. And there was a war and all sorts of terrible things happened, thanks to the [FOREIGN], because [FOREIGN] all of a sudden had taken on a very ethnic but actually the opposite sense of racist connotation. And this is what I hoped to put into perspective, not by picking off the dedication on the facade, but to introduce the notion that everyone who happens to live in Germany, irrespective of their parents, were accepted Germans in terms of blood that is, if they could find it, whether they are immigrants recent or old. Whatever their background is, whoever lives in Germany is addressed and this is a tribute to them, and in effect that it's a reminder, some hope, to the members of Parliament that they are responsible and have to think of everyone who happens to be in a territory [INAUDIBLE]. >> So in a way, it's a whole discussion about citizenship and who belongs to the nation, right, whether it's, we all have these various definitions of what citizenship is. Something that I also think is quite interesting is how you take, there's a Bertolt Brecht, you know. He spoke of precisely this term to the population, the [FOREIGN], in that moment- >> Right. >> Of Nazi history. >> Yes. >> And so there's also that reference. In addition, something that to me adds to the great complexity of the piece is that you invited the very process through which laws and politics are made and the agents who are active in that process. They ended up becoming participants. You know, willing participants but also, in some cases, unhappy participants [LAUGH] of the process of creating this extraordinary garden. Because you spoke thus far about the facade and the sign, but inside there was the text in the form of a garden. Can you say a little bit more about how that process evolved? How the Parliament engaged? They asked you to, you were commissioned to make this work. But then once you proposed it, it went through several stages, right, including like a short controversy with some representatives who had some issues. Can you talk a little bit about that? Because I think it's a very important and rich part of the project. >> Well, my proposal as I submitted it to the art committee of Bundestag. The art committee is composed of representatively a percentage by the members of the other departments in the public. My proposal was to have [FOREIGN] opening a car charge, that too, a dedication to the population. [FOREIGN] instead of [FOREIGN]. Remember that name is a qualification, [FOREIGN]. >> Yep. >> And other countries, it wouldn't matter. If you see something dedicated to the American people, nobody would think twice about it. >> Because of the ethnic history. >> Right, Right. So in the same typeface it had on the facade, it had the dedication to the population. It is to say everyone who instead of the territory of Germany. And I invited all members of the Bundestag to bring 50, 100 pounds of soil from their constituency to Berlin, into this courtyard, and spread it around the letters. And thereby in a symbolic way say yes, we dedicate our soil from our constituency to this notion. The art committee approved it with an overwhelming majority. There was only one dissenter. And then there were discussions. And the one dissenter, in effect, started a campaign against it. She was a member of the Christian Democratic Party, the center-right party in Germany. And the press, the media, both printed as well as TV got involved, so it became in effect a national debate. Whether something that appears to be innocent, they watch and fault and shoot people, into this kind of perspective. And because of the bylaws in the Bundestag, after some like 150 members of Parliament demanded it, it had to be called an open debate of the entire arm had to be called, and votes on the project, even though the art committee had okayed it several times already. >> Do you know when the last time was in German history or any other country's history where the entire floor was taken by debating a public art project? It's not very often that that happens. >> No, I don't. [SOUND] >> I don't know, yeah, in a way you could say what happened during the cultural wars here in the 70s. >> Yep, Jesse Adams. >> Actually, yeah yeah, in the 80s, that way they could sell their tickets. That's when- >> That's true. >> What became a public issue, and in effect had the result that of the NEA was cut down and could no longer operate as it did before. >> Yeah, yeah. And is the garden still, because I remember when it was first produced, there was a webcast, you could see images of this growing garden. Is that [CROSSTALK]? >> The webcast is still part of it. But let me just correct you. You use the word garden. There is no garden there. I deliberately pointed out, or it's part of the proposal as it was accepted, that no clipping, no cleaning, no nothing is to be done. My assumption was that in the soil naturally seeds and worms and also some other stuff, and they were to be growing freely without any interference by anybody. >> A wild democracy [LAUGH]. >> A wild vegetation place. >> Or an English garden in Germany [LAUGH]. Well the English have someone to take care of their gardens [LAUGH]. >> [CROSSTALK] They take care. >> They pretend like they don't [LAUGH] take care. While in effect, it was accepted, I never believed that it would accept it. I imagine that London, in that respect, would be the same as New York. If you wanted to do something like this under the auspices of the mayor's office, something that puts Wall Street through a particular light. No matter who is the mayor, I think we would have had a chance to be approved and paid from the mayor's office. It would have been impossible in the political culture. I have to hand it to people in the UK. There was a independent jury, and they liked it, and they chose us, even though the jury had been appointed by the mayor. >> Yeah.
