We're here with a wonderful guest, Rebecca Gomperts. Thank you, Rebecca, for being with us, hello. >> Hello, thank you for inviting me. >> So you're now in Amsterdam, but you're always traveling for your work and your practice. And, one of the reasons that I thought it would be really exciting for students to learn from you and your work, is that there's a particular project, Women on Waves, that you've been working on for a while, that is very significant in relation to social movements. But also you have a really interesting background, right? So before we even get into that project, there's not that many people in the world who are artists and also physicians, or who studied medicine. So, how did that, you were part of the environmental movement before you started Women on Waves. How did that all start coming together for you as you developed your knowledge base, that relationship between art and medicine. >> That's a very difficult question. I think that perhaps these two things are not so different as some people want to believe, or believe. For me, the reason why I started studying medicine was from a prospective that I, as a human being, wanted to add to influence the world, and to developing of people. So when I was doing medicine, I realized that the environment, while I really, really like the study, and it's very interesting. Because it's really about the basic understanding of what life is, and about functioning of human bodies and human nature. But the environment in which it took place, which is hospitals usually, I didn't particularly feel at home there. And so, and I also miss, kind of the more creative side of it. It does exist within medicine, I have to say that it does, especially in the research part. But at that point I was still studying, so I didn't have any research experience. And that was when I started the art school. And for me, the art school was really interesting because it really learned maybe how to, so I think what good art does it's giving people a different perspective on life, and on reality. And a perspective that may be beautiful or ugly, but it's different. It's opening up our view, and I think it's a very useful skill to have when you're practicing medicine as well. >> Yeah. >> So the interesting thing is in the Netherlands, a doctor is called an arts. So arts, so it's not that different. >> It's not that, that's interesting. Okay, so for me it was actually a very natural process. I had been trained as an abortion provider, and I sailed for Greenpeace at that time. So I was at sea, I learned about activism from Greenpeace, and I was an abortion provider. So actually Women on Waves, the idea behind this is that, what I was saying with Greenpeace, I found out [INAUDIBLE] where abortion was illegal. I didn't know that before. And that women were really suffering from that. If they had unwanted pregnancies, they will try to find any way that they can. Sometimes they miss their health, or they die even, if they don't have access to safe abortion methods. And so, the idea to have a shipment that travels to countries where abortion is illegal. They can take women in national waters, so in harbor, and then sail out to international waters, where it's Dutch law that applies aboard the Dutch ship. It's 12 miles, it's about three hours of sailing. And this was a very simple idea, in a sense it was a needs driven idea. So I learned about the need, women need abortions, and I was in a context where a solution was presented to me, being leadership and weakness. >> Mm-hm. >> And so actually the whole idea started as an idea to be a practical solution. >> Mm-hm, yeah. >> And I think is a really great thing because nothing would happen without it. So, and then it turned out to a really great advocacy tool. And now, we see a lot of other projects like Women on Web, which is an online abortion service, to also really respond to this need that women have in countries where abortion is illegal. >> One of the things that I find quite powerful and interesting in your work in addition to all the services that it provides. But also it's creativity in combining art and medicine, is how creative it is in relation to what people call the cracks in the system, right? You're always dealing with laws, and some laws we consider to be legitimate, but as activists there's often laws in place that we consider to be illegitimate, right? >> Yes. [LAUGH] >> And this is the case with the project, that you're not trying to be a criminal, you're just trying to deal with those laws that are illegitimate, in our view. >> Okay well, actually what is interesting about the law, I think it is not really black and white, it's almost about how we interpret the law often. And lawyers are usually very conservative, in the way they interpret the law. So, what you want to do, so there's an idea based on an assumption. The assumption is that, other territory are you on board a Dutch ship, it brings up a lot of other things, you know. There's things to know. Just put [INAUDIBLE] and then you work with lawyers, okay. What, so what are these other sanctions? And how can we, so we're going to do this, you can tell me that I shouldn't do it, but I'm going to go to how can we best do it, which I'm thinking about, this usually happens. Because that is their duty to keep people, especially when it's on the verge of what is allowed or not allowed, it's their duty to keep people safe. But the idea is that you don't break the law, you stay within the law, but you're pushing it. And then [INAUDIBLE] rights, agreements gives a lot of space. >> And there is also that history within both medicine and art, right? When new inventions are developed, or free hands, as well as the avant-garde has always been on the edge of legality right? Having to work out that relationship between. Sometimes laws not just have to be interpreted, but haven't even been defined for a new thing. And so it's about the ethics of it, like how do we deal with the ethical of? >> Yeah. >> In addition through this Women on Waves and Women on Web, what is the future for you? Like what are you planning up right now? >> Well about half a year ago we launched a new campaign, the Abortion Drone, and we shipped, we flew abortion pills from Germany to Poland, to women in Poland. And that was a totally new projects that we tried to figure out. You know, drones are very sexy now. They are used for a lot of different purposes, for military intervention, but also for example to spot illegal people at sea to save them, or to wildlife. And so, we thought that we want to explore how it can also be used for abortion rights. And I think we will do that campaign more often in different countries, so that would be one part. The other part which is the ongoing service that we deliver is with the web, and that is growing. And we're adding new languages so that we can help women wherever they are in the world to find the best solution in their situation, whether it's local help with legal providers that we know. So we're building up a network or whatever it is, having the pills sent to them by mail. >> And so, if people want to get involved in Women on Web, what's the best way for them to get involved? Does it have to do with where they are, or is there a standard way in which you like to get people involved? >> Well, you know, the work is offline, if it's online you would see. So, there's, people who work on the Internet, so they can work from everywhere in the world. I think the most important is that they don't know about medical abortion, about the fact that they can have safely do an abortion [INAUDIBLE], that these pills are available. And, I think that the people who want to help, they can go to the website www.womenonweb.org, send us an email and we'll send a list of suggestions about how they can be [INAUDIBLE] in their community. So that the more people are informed about this safe but working with themselves as well. >> Well, thank you so much for taking time, and I think we'll all be following your projects and work. And I'm sure many of our students will want to join and do similar kind of work, it's very inspiring. >> Thank you. I'm looking forward to seeing the responses. >> Yes, thank you, Rebecca. >> Okay, thanks. >> Bye. >> Bye, good night.
