Do you think there is a religious dimension to Confucianism? Absolutely. I go to my graduate students at Peking University and I say to them, "Are Chinese people religious?" They think science and superstition. Religion is on the superstitious side. They think Marx, opium of the people. And so they say to me, "No, no, we're not religious." But then I say to them, the word "religion," Latin, is religare, means "to bind tightly." In the Abrahamic traditions, binding tightly is binding tightly with your God because that's the source of your truth, value and so on. But in this Confucian world, the idea of "Li," of binding tightly with your family, when the largest migration in human history, every spring festival, the cities in China empty out and everybody goes home. Day number one, day number two, day number 12, day number 13. Renewing the relationships with their families, the food, the teachers, all of this stuff, that is a profoundly religious experience. It's not institutional religion. Right. But it's a kind of religiousness. And religiousness probably is better than institutionalised religion in terms of optimising the kind of religious experience that we're looking for. I think Confucianism is very special in a way, or different in a way because its emphasis on a humanistic way of living to bring the best potential of humans and to realise that the best part of humanity in yourself to make this world a better place to live. For its own, you can maybe make a kind of Buddhist Confucianism, and then you make a kind of a Confucian interpretation maybe from some ideas of enlightenment or maybe an earlier time of some ideas of becoming immortal or something like this. But these ideas are not actually Confucian. So it has something to do with maybe that you want to have a good life and maybe you also, maybe you extend a little bit to your own person. And so maybe you want to become very famous or maybe you feel very obliged to help other people and something like this. And maybe you strengthen it a little bit with some religious ideas, but these religious ideas are coming maybe from other religions. So I do not think that really Confucianism is a kind of religion. How do you see the future development of Confucianism? Is it going to be more closely connected with the government's attempt to create a stronger sense of nationalism, or is it more organic, more spontaneous? We see the government in China playing Confucianism as a way of promoting social stability and certain kinds of values, kind of patronizing, kind of a posture on the part of the government. But at the same time, given the transformation that's going on in China, these values, these Confucian traditional values are really the best way that you have of getting people to buy into a certain kind of social fabric. Having said that, the only kind of Confucianism that can be relevant to the contemporary changing world cultural order is a self-critical, progressive kind of Confucianism, and so Confucianism isn't the answer. The Confucian in its present form is not the answer. It brings with it a lot of problems, corruption, gender prejudice, unfortunate kinds of hierarchies. But it can be reformed in such a way that it really has an important contribution to make. For two centuries, this world has been silenced for economic, for political reasons. Now that the Greater China has stood up, it has a place at the table, and it has something to say. And so my sense of it is that a critical, self-critical reformist, revisionist, progressive Confucianism has a lot to contribute to a changing world cultural order. I think that modern science will change our mind and maybe now much more rapidly than before. Probably so, I think that people in fifty years later will quite different think about what human beings are and what the world is and maybe also what is good. So, I think that ancient philosophies may have a difficulty to catch up with all these developments. I was thinking about social roles. It's not so much to do with technology but much more with modernity. We are treating other people very badly in our society, and so maybe it would be very interesting maybe to discuss this front from a different perspective. But if we do that, maybe it's very interesting maybe to reflect on Chinese society and also on Confucian thinking, but if we do that, I think that we will go to psychology, we will go to medicine, we will go to pedagogic, and we will go maybe to ethics, maybe to rebuild our way of thinking how we should treat other people. What do you think is the best way for China to promote cross-cultural dialogue? I think he would put more emphasis on a moral government based on good examples and humane government. We are still facing the same problems he did 2500 years ago. A lot of the problems today are actually results of human act, driven by unlimited desire for material goods and also the unbalanced distribution of these materials and limited resources as well. So, he would go out and say, "What happened to these rulers? Are you really taking care of the well-being of the people there?" We have very good well-developed technologies today, but it's not necessarily improve our life either, and it's something to do with the leadership as well as educations there. Final question, Roger. Picture yourself in the audience of the president of China and the president of the United States. What would you say to them from a Confucian perspective or from the position of promoting of better cross-cultural understanding? I think that the president of China has a job cut out for himself that corruption is such a culture in China, that to bring it under control really requires that you enforce certain kinds of standards within China that create a lot of a great deal of pushback, and so I think he's doing his best. I think, internationally, this idea of "yi dai yi lu", of the one belt, the New Silk Road, if you can get the fast trains into Africa, it will do for Africa what trains did for North America. Like with Western imperialism, it was about winners and losers. You go in, you want the natural resources, you dominate the culture. That model is unsustainable, and that model has come back to this immigration into Europe is simply the colonies coming home. You did that. You establish these colonies, now they're coming back to find you. China is giving $60 billion to Africa and wants 120 billion back, but Africa knows that, you know, and so this approach, this idea of not our standards, Western benchmarks enforced on countries other than Western countries might not be the best model. Maybe the best model is to help them do what they want to do, and at the same time, benefit ourselves as well. Hopefully, we will move from a winners-and-losers model to a win-win lose-lose model. Thank you so much for joining us today. We truly appreciate your taking the time to share your views on Confucianism with us. Thank you very much.
