kayakers or whatever, right?
So, if it's the price of water were sufficiently
high we don't even have to worry about this.
The right biofuels will emerge.
>> Yep.
>> On their own, because they have to pay the correct amount for the research.
The only time-
>> Yep.
>> This becomes a problem is if water is way too cheap.
>> [LAUGH] Yes.
>> And then, people get tempted the people creating the
biofuels get tempted to use this water that's too cheap.
And then we've got to make a rule and then we have to worry about questions
like this, but if the price of water
was right, this question wouldn't even be, be needed.
Right?
because, because the, the water would be going to the-
>> Yeah.
>> Correct uses.
>> So, so the reason I'm laugh, the
reason laughing is because what I love about economists.
I love about these guys is that there's no moral decision ever in there, right?
It's as if the water was the right price then,
the right outcome would come from it and that's absolutely mathematically
true but as Mark well knows, the problem with that is
there's so many things we do in this country and worldwide.
We put an emotional and moral, whatever decision on top of.
We're never complete capitalists, right?
So, so for example, we subsidies corn enormously.
>> We subsidize water enormously.
[CROSSTALK].
>> Yeah, the disparity on water cost is amazing.
Over in Imperial Valley, the get water at $15 an acre foot, and
here in San Diego, we spend a little over $2,400 an acre foot.
Same water, it comes out of the same pipe
but they get it just be bit cheaper than us.
Okay.
But anyway, good thing to think about in cola and it, and
it, we need to do that on every biofuel that we look at.
Okay.
Here's a little different one.
He said, I would like to know, this comes from Mike M.
I would like to know the research that measured
electric power as more dirty, than the gasoline fleet.
I own an electric car.
And the compromise that I must make to use electric cars are
going to be hard to justify if electric power is the worst.
Okay.
I can tell you a little where I think this comes from.
So, where I think this comes from is right now, I don't think it was.
I don't think it was you, but maybe.
One of the economists here at UC San Diego did do the calculation
>> It was Josh [INAUDIBLE].
>> And what Josh came up with was
that right now, because electricity in San Diego some
of it comes from outer state, out of state,
Arizona where they burn coal to generate that electricity.
If you count a coal fired power plant as providing the electricity for your car.
Then you have a higher carbon footprint, with an electric can in San Diego,
than if you were to go buy a Prius, just a high mileage hybrid.
>> Yeah, I've heard of that.
So, so the average electricity that come into San
Diego, now we don't know [UNKNOWN], where he lives.
Now, this is, this is the key question.
>> Right.
>> There are some beautiful maps that these researchers have produced and
in most of California, you know, almost all of the West Coast,
electric cars are as good as the Prius, maybe even a little
better in the terms of the amount of CO2 they're putting out.
Where in Texas, it is worse than a compact gasoline car and much worse than a Prius.
Add this just has to do with the electricity mix in these states.
>> Right.
>> Now the, the hope of course is if we get enough electric
cars out there, yeah, they're not much cleaner than gasoline now on CO2.
But this gives us a chance in the future to generate-
>> Right.
>> The electricity more cleanly and then instantly, we don't have
to wait the 20 years I was telling you about for-
>> That's right.
>> For new cars, right?
New gasoline powered cars that are going to burn gasoline for 20 years.
Right?
As soon as the electricity grid, grid flips over, all the electric
cars existing electric cars that are out there will suddenly become much cleaner.
>> Yep.
>> I will, I will point you to another study.
I can, I can go see the link, I don't have it right now.
But there's just some amazing pictures of local air pollution.
So one of the real benefits of electric cars is local air pollution.
How much, how much damage are you doing to asthma cases?
How much damage are you doing to the kids at the schools you drive by, in terms of
their test scores and so it's it's amazing how
important local air pollution is on all those things.
>> Yep.
>> There's some maps now, where your local air pollution
appears when you're driving an electric car versus a gasoline car.
So if you drive a gasoline car, and they do
this by a city chart, you're driving a gasoline car in
the city you see all this red and all this damage
from the local air pollution being done in, in your city.
Mainly, to kids and the elderly within the city.
And then with a, with a electric car, the damage
is other places it's still there, and in particular in
places where that electric car is mostly drawing coal, you
see big red spikes around the coal fire power plants.
Which are not in the city, they're out in the country side.
But it's just kind of interesting to the spatial difference.
It's really stark right-
Good crowd in the city does almost no damage to
people in the city in terms of local air pollution.
It's all outside the city where the power is coming in.
It's remarkable.
>> Yeah, I just saw a little thing.
>> They can see that.
>> Yeah, and I'll post that for you guys.
I just saw a little thing popped up that said Mike is from Tulsa, Oklahoma.
Tulsa, Oklahoma, huh.
Oh, hey.
>> It's probably coal fire.
>> It's probably coal fire.
It's going to be borderline.
>> Yeah.
>> It's going to be borderline.
Your hope is that they switch the grid over before your car [UNKNOWN]
>> Yeah.
But look, Mike, I, so I'm buying an electric car this summer as well.
You know, yeah.
No, I've been out looking for.
And, and I think it's one of these things.
It's, it's always a chicken or egg problem.
>> Yeah.
>> Right?
Which is, how are we ever going to switch the
grid over, and, and really get it to be renewable power.
If everybody's got a gasoline car and therefore they don't really need it.
>> Right it takes a long time switch over.
>> It takes a long time to switch over, so if you buy
a new car today it's 15 to 20 years you're going to run that thing.
>> Also the other, the other advantage of these ideas is learning by doing.
And the fact that if we don't, if we don't
have early adopters out there willing to try these technologies.
Buy them, see how well they work.
They will never sort of come to full, to full life-
>> That's right.
>> And their costs will fall and so on, so.
>> Yep.
>> So I would take pride in, in that-
>> Yeah.
>> Even if the immediate emissions are not, as low as they could be.
>> Yeah, and so you could do two things, Mike.
One.
You know, from Mark and I, stay the course, get your
electric car and drive it around Tulsa, proud as you can be.
And then the second thing that you can do,
if you put photovoltaics on your roof, then just charge
your car between you know two, and you know ten
in the morning and two in the afternoon every day.
And then you are absolutely.
An enormous benefit to the community because now you are putting renewable
energy into that car and you are not driving around putting out gasoline.
And I just wanted to.
>> [INAUDIBLE] Willard.
>> Yep.
>> It is very interesting to me about
electric cars, which is they encourage you to.
I should say that, your, your local utility and the
power producers will encourage you to charge it at night.
>> Yeah.
>> Why do they encourage you to charge it at night?
It's because that's when most of the electric power's coming from coal-
>> Yeah.
>> Which is the cheapest.
If you charge it during the day, most electric
power's, a lot of electric power's coming from natural gas.
Which is much cleaner, maybe a [INAUDIBLE] which you mentioned reminded me of this.
>> Yeah.
>> So charging engine during the day is
more expensive because you're using more expensive electricity sources.
Natural gas, PV and whatever, but it's actually better for the environment.
So in the very there's, there's an
interesting economic tension that hasn't been resolved yet.
Yeah, in terms of we think about charging archives.
>> Yep.
So I'm going to get a new electric car and Mike, if you have an opinion on
the one you've got and you like it, let me know because I haven't picked one yet.
I, I have a friend who's got a Tesla but I just cannot pay 90,000 bucks for a car.
Just will not do it.
>> Well, come with a cheaper one.
You may have to wait.
>> Yeah, but that, but that's not.
I think that's more than a year now.
I think it's the Fall of 2015.
>> [UNKNOWN] that are very happy and [UNKNOWN].
>> Okay.
So at any rate, I'm looking at them now and I'll decide.
Okay, so let's see.
Here's one, not 100% certain what.
Says, what do you think of citizens climate lobby,
which I'm not 100% certain that is proposal, to
return the carbon tax revenues to tax payer to
cushion impacts of higher energy prices for carbon tax?
So I'll let Mark answer that because that's a straight economic question.
So I think what they're asking is, put a tax
on carbon and then rebate the people who can't afford that.