[MUSIC] We've all been learning about different aspects of leadership and management. And we'd have seen already that there are different ways in which we can lead, different ways in which we can manage. And some, like Mullins for example, argue that leadership and management, to a very significant degree, are synonymous. And we know that in all organizations, because each organization is unique in its own way, have different leadership and management requirements for a whole number of different reasons, which we've begun to explore. Today, we're going to be having a discussion with Dr. Mary Stiasny from the University of London, who's going to share, in this initiative view, a bit about her experience, about what she's doing at the moment. But particularly, about the role of women in leadership. So, Mary, could you explain to us just a bit about what your role is at the moment and then go on to give some examples about women in leadership. >> So, I'm Pro Vice-Chancellor of the University of London with a responsibility for the international portfolio. >> Right. >> And I am, at the same time, Chief Executive of the International Programmes of the University of London, so our Distance Learning and Flexible Learning programs. >> Right. >> And in that role, I have academic, management, leadership responsibilities effectively, for the academic portfolio, for the interrelationships with the member institutions of the University of London and oversight as well of the way the programs develop. And then at the same time, management with the staff and the team based in Stewart House. >> So, quite a range of responsibilities. >> Yep, and not forgetting the student at the end all of this. >> Right. >> And oversight of the students' experience and the way that we interact with, look after, and engage with students. And the rigor of the degree programs that we offer. >> Right. Okay, and in all of that then, what examples have you got that you can share with us please, about women in leadership? >> I think as a woman in leadership, one experiences a whole range of different things. There is now, a much greater acceptance of women being in leadership roles. It doesn't escape my attention that I am very often the only woman in a senior leadership position and have been in several of the jobs that I've done in recent years. And it's always a challenge to make sure that one is fully accepted, that one is seen as authentic, as a man would be in the role. It's very easy to get into a situation where one can be accused of having a chip on one's shoulder. But in fact, as a woman, there are challenges that one does face. I am frequently the, as a I said, the only woman, so I can see myself as being used quite often on interview panels as the woman, the token woman, the only woman. >> Right. >> To make sure that there is an equity, there's equity and equality taken care of, or inclusion. I have, throughout my career, had experiences of being pulled up short when I've thought, gosh, I'm sure that this person would not have said that if I'd been a man, or would not have spoken to me about that if I'd been a man, or would not have addressed me in that way if I'd been a man. And the earliest example I can think of is when I was a very young teacher and I can't remember what it was that was said to me. But a deputy head in the school where I was teaching, because I started out as a school teacher, said something to me which made me think, gosh, that would never have been said to me if I was a male teacher. In subsequent years, one encounters different prejudices and different diminutions of one's role and one's self by other people, different definitions that are perhaps, not the definitions that one has for oneself. And some extraordinary examples, I mean there's one example that I have of in very recent years, so we're talking in the 2000s, being interviewed for the top job in a highly prestigious institution. And the feedback I was given, I was not, I was shortlisted, but not in the final list. I was told that I'd done a brilliant interview, and then there was various feedback about they were ain't going to take me forward. And the consolation I was supposed to be happy with was that the panel wanted me to know that I looked good. >> Gosh. >> And I find that quite stunning and again, it would not be said to me if I was a man. Suddenly, people wouldn't say but your tie was nice, David. >> [LAUGH] No, probably not. >> You didn't get the job, but your tie was nice, the panel would like you to know. And what possesses people to think that a woman would be pleased to be told that, when she's being interviewed for a very top job. Other advantages to being a woman in leadership, I think that maybe. I think some women probably have more advantages than others, but then some men have more advantages than others. If you have a lot of emotional intelligence I think, you're probably much better leader than if you haven't. But that's not gender specific. So I don't think that is a characteristic, or a criterion, or an area of acceptability, in relation to gender. Perhaps, women are viewed as being naturally possessors of emotional intelligence. I don't think it's true, because I think there are some women who have none at all, just as there are lots of men who have a lot. But perhaps one has that kind of starter for ten that you might not have otherwise. But I don't think it is actually real. Have I found it a disadvantage? I think I've just gone ahead and got on with it. I think one of the things that is often said is that women are less prepared to take risks with their careers, which is why they don't necessarily move ahead as much as men. But then there are these huge prejudices against giving women chances. So, it's very easy to blame women for not been in senior posts. And I think that's unfair to be quite frank. >> Mary has shared with us a number of different, sometimes quite emotive aspects of women in leadership. And she's shared with us some of the challenges that are with us today, and some of which she's experienced personally. And given us a very balanced view of some of the possible restraints that means for women in leadership, and also some of the possible advantages that might mean for women in leadership. And Mary's also drawing some correlation between male and female, and actually found a great deal of common ground between both. However, what all the evidence shows in organizations today, not just in the UK but globally, the gender representation at the most senior levels of organizations is not quite as balanced as most of us would expect it to be. Although there are variances in that, in different parts of the world. So Mary, in terms of some of the senior roles that you've held or hold, how then have you demonstrated your effectiveness as a woman in a leadership position? >> I think what one has to be able to do is analyze what the role is, what the task are, what the key priorities are and deliver on those. But that's not about being simply task focused itself. It's about being able to take the people with you that's your team. That's, because I've always worked in a form of education, that's your students, and that's also your stakeholders. It's having an awareness of the people who manage you, and how you relate to them. So, it's having that whole patch, and then delivering on what the priorities of the job, what the role are, knowing them, understanding them, and delivering on them. >> So, with these key priorities that you've identified for us, they are common, whether you're a woman in leadership or a man in leadership. What differences were you conscious of being a woman, as opposed to perhaps, if there'd been a man in the same position. >> So they're the same. They're the same priorities. They're the same demands. There are more prejudices for a woman. I have experience of being patronized when I try to do things. I have experiences of being asked why I haven't poured the tea, when I've been in a senior management meeting. Not recently, that was some time ago. >> Right. >> And it was a joke, but the fact that it was appropriate to make the joke was extremely uncomfortable. Not just for me, but for the other people who were there, the men who were there in the meeting. So it's like you're having to make a double step at times. In the early years of becoming a senior manager, there was a prejudice, I would say, and I suspect for some people, it's still there, that a woman will be over emotional. That a woman will not be able to be analytical. So, you have to overcome those prejudices as well. And just get on with it. And prove that you can do it, and you can do it as well as- and it's often been said that women feel I have to better than a man at the job. >> What we are beginning to uncover here is this whole area of women in leadership, it's had a very high profile recently, but the whole issue is not new. For many decades now, it has been an issue. It was in the early 80s that the phrase, glass ceiling, came in to vogue. And what that meant was, more and more women being encouraged to go for senior levels within an organization. And here we are, almost 40 years later, actually reaching the conclusion based on Mary's experience that in many places, very little has changed. But what Mary has also demonstrated is that the key skills and attributes she'd need to show everyday, in the various positions of seniority that she's held down, and been very successful in, are actually very similar to the ones anybody else would have to do. Except that in Mary's experience, there were prejudices to overcome. There were the perception or reality that actually you had to double prove yourself and double prove your worth. And there might be occasions where comments were made, even in jest, but probably inappropriately, possibly because there was a woman amongst the team. So there was some really emotive issues still today, as probably there are within the male side of the leadership teams as well, but perhaps probably with more profile amongst women in leadership and will continue to be. But Mary, in terms of your experience as well, do you see things changing year to year or decade to decade? >> I think there's a difference in that now, there is much less hindrance, although globally there are still pockets where there is a hindrance and we know this. Much less hindrance for women getting started, for women having higher education, for women being able to be trained for senior posts. It's how far they can go, how far they can- a, have the freedom to go. And b, be able to break through that glass ceiling. And whether that glass ceiling is still there, and I think it is. I believe it is and we've just seen an example of that in the American election, for example. >> Yes, where women in leadership and the role of women in society in general, was very high profile issue. >> Absolutely. >> Wasn't it, right the way through, >> Absolutely. >> Through the campaign. It's been really interesting exploring this issue of women in leadership with Mary, because what we began with is looking at some of the probable restraints, and constraints that women on this leadership journey faced and still face. We also highlighted some of the potential advantages that women, either in leadership or aspiring to get to a leadership position, may have. But we also readily identify that those constraints and advantages are common across gender. It's how they're applied in a real organizational situation, is what the challenge is. And that then uncovers several emotive aspects, which are still being navigated through, at different rates, for different reasons, in different parts of the world. Mary has explained to us in some of the roles that she's held down, very successfully held down, that there are still elements of prejudices. There are still elements where the odd, inappropriate comment is made. There are still perceptions that women in leadership needs to do more to prove worth, were the words that Mary used. We know that this is a very high profile issue, because it had huge recognition as being an issue in the recent United States election. It's got very high profile, and has done for many years now, here in the United Kingdom. So it will be really interesting, and it will be really interesting as an issue for you to explore in your own organizations, or an organization that you're familiar with, how in fact at different levels of seniority, this gender diversity ratio is evolving over time. Thank you very much, Mary. [MUSIC]
