Hi there. In the last week of the course, we focused on the link between policymakers and academics. We observed that policymakers could benefit from more rigorously testing their assumptions and ideas that might form the basis of their work, as we also discussed in the week on assumptions on counterterrorism. Policymakers could also benefit from the input of academics to develop a more reflective attitude, more critical stand towards their work, and hopefully better evidence-based policies. Against this backdrop, I'm very happy to introduce to you, Dr Joanna Cook. She is a Senior Project Manager at the International Center for Counter-Terrorism, the ICCT based here in The Hague, and she's the editor in chief of the ICCT journal, and she's also an assistant professor at Leiden University. Her research more broadly focus on women and gender, and violent extremism, countering violent extremism and counterterrorism practices. We're very happy to have you here, Dr. Cook, welcome. Thank you, it's great to be here. One of your projects is with the International Organization of Migration, a UN body, and it focuses on the prosecution, rehabilitation, and reintegration of thousands of Islamic State affiliated families from Iraq that are currently in all whole camp in Syria. Could you tell us a little bit more about this project? Sure. After the Islamic State fell in 2019, in the battle Baghouz, we saw a lot of the families that have been affiliated with Islamic State fighters end up in a place in Northeast Syria called Al Hol camp. Al Hol camp currently houses the majority of Islamic State-affiliated families still remain in the region. Iraq has 30,000 citizens currently in Al Hol camp, 94 percent of which are women and children. The government of Iraq has made a commitment now to return those populations to Iraq and to try and rehabilitate and reintegrate them, and also to prosecute adults where appropriate. They've got a very complex task ahead of them and so we were commissioned as the International Center for Counter-Terrorism to go support some of the work that they're doing over there. The International Organization of Migration are the National Security Adviser in Iraq. We set up a series of round tables where we were able to come and present research-based evidence. One form, some of the works that they're currently thinking about in relation to rehabilitation and reintegration of these populations. They set up a rehabilitation center in Iraq called [inaudible], and in the center they'll be bringing these populations back in small groups and rehabilitating them before reintegrating them into society. What we had the opportunity to do with them was to bring the research-based evidence to the table to discuss things like, how do you rehabilitate adults who have experienced or have been affiliated with Islamic State members? This evidence, is based on field studies somewhere else or other areas? Think of people from war zones in Africa, so what is this? On what research or what examples is this based? There's a lot of research out there already that we can draw off of, but also because it's a very unique population in many ways, we also have to think about how research from different fields can apply to what we're looking at. There's rehabilitation of terrorists that has occurred for ages, and there's a lot of studies on countries like Saudi Arabia, Yemen, countries around Europe that have tried to rehabilitate [inaudible]. But the problem is most of those were adult males, most of those who run prisons, but they can still inform things like, what are some of the good practices around rehabilitating actors that we've seen in those cases. But we have to also then think about, what does that mean if we're dealing with adult women? So what are some of the gender differences or distinctions with that? If we're looking at the case of the children, children aren't necessarily indoctrinated, we don't view them as indoctrinated in the way that adults might be. But we've got to think about some of the complex experiences children have had in being affiliated with this organization. Many of them have been out of school for years, many of them have seen very severe violence, many of them might not have a social identity outside of that of Islamic State. We can think about other fields of research that can help inform this work as well, so for example, we looked at research that's been done on child soldiers. You can also draw research that's been with children in gangs, for example, or cults, or you can think about some of the different elements the children might face in those environments, and how research from other fields can help us think more robustly about the best way to support children in this particular environment. Interesting. You use a lot of different backgrounds, a lot of different disciplines. I guess also in terrorism studies we focus mainly on the man and those that commit violence, but here we're talking really about thousands of children, thousands of women. The authorities ask for help, this is evidence-based, research-based knowledge. But then, how do you do that in practice? You just came back actually from Iraq. How does that work in practice? You as an academic, with all the knowledge, and a lot of your colleagues with all their knowledge, then you go to Iraq, and then what? How does that work? We had the fortunate opportunity to set up a series of workshops, particularly with actors in Iraq, actors from very different segments of the government and authorities who would actually be working directly with these populations. We come with a certain set of knowledge, but they have knowledge in areas that we don't as well. It's about how we can bring together our shared knowledge and discuss in the most robust manner how the research that we've identified, for example, or conducted can match up or marry to the context that they're facing and the experience that they have. So context matters in this field, context matters significantly, and so better finding out what some of the challenges that they face in this work or some of the concerns that they're facing in their communities. A lot of these communities have a lot of resistance to bringing these populations back. So by better understanding their own views, their experiences, strength and limitations of the work that they're already doing, we can best identify and support areas where that knowledge that we can bring, can add an extra value or something unique to help them better conduct the work that's so important for them to do. I'd say it's a two-way street. So you go there, you bring a lot of knowledge but you get new questions and new dilemmas and then you together try to figure it out. Absolutely. For example, Iraq is a tribal society, and so the role of tribal leaders is very important in the work and reintegration. The tribal leaders can act as gatekeepers, they can help support these families, they can provide a guarantees for these families to return to their communities. That's something quite new to me, but what we can bring, for example, is understanding how rehabilitation has worked in other contexts, and what has worked and what hasn't worked. For example, we can emphasize things like research in showing that you should focus on changing people's behaviors and not focus on changing people's ideology. We're not trying to brainwash people that are coming back, but in cases where adults, in particular, might still be committed to an organization or still might be motivated to support Islamic state ideology, we can focus on things like changing behaviors instead of changing mindsets, in some ways, which has been proven in many other cases to be much more effective. We're trying to change people's behaviors, we're not trying to brainwash them, for example. Interesting. We have also in our course a whole debate about the difference between disengagement and deradicalization. So either make sure that people are in a different setting versus trying to change their ideas that very much ties into that debate as well. Well, I'm sure that our viewers would very much love to know more about your projects. So we highly recommend, of course, a visit to the ICCT website. Do you have any publication or a project that you'd recommend to our viewers? Yes, of course. I think one of the most relevant publications we have coming out is we've got a book coming out this fall actually called The Rules is for None but Allah, Islamist Approaches to Governance. The book has really helped us better understand how terrorist organizations approach the subject of governance, and again, how they reach out to the different actors like family members, women and children, for example, in making those decisions as well. That book is one that I would highly recommend. There's also my book, A Woman's Place: US Counterterrorism Since 9/11, which also helps think about some of that and more counterterrorism-related aspects, to approaching these groups and distinct populations. Excellent. Well, thank you very much for this very interesting interview, sharing your experience in this project, but also your general experience with research into these very difficult and complicated issues. Again, I mentioned that I'm sure many people want to learn more about it. So I highly recommend a visit to the website of the International Center for Counterterrorism, and you can find it at icct.nl. Dr. Cook, thank you very much. Thank you very much for having me.
